Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Lucas Gelfond's avatar

loved this, some thoughts / stream of consciousness in no particular order:

- regardless of validity I totally agree that enthusiasm over the "AI is normal technology" framing is that we so badly *want* it to be true because it simplifies things / suggests we are not in for lots of disruption, etc

- the OG essay had been on my list forever but I just got around to reading it now — it already feels dated re what sorts of tasks we can perform almost wholly with LLMs already. i also bristled pretty heavily with their self-cite about the "substantial [manual] engineering work" which already feels like a relic

- it does feel like a clever (if a bit dishonest) rhetorical tactic to claim to "not minimize the capabilities of AI" while, as you say, cherrypicking a bunch of failure examples to minimize views of capabilities

- I am more sympathetic to some of their descriptions of parallels to previous adoption — I agree the PC example isn't well-formed / perhaps less useful than social media or others. I'm initially pretty sympathetic to their framing about adoption being less "costly" than, say, buying a PC, and thus a different measure, but on more thought this feels totally unrelated to what diffusion will look like. or: the impact many people are likely to feel is job loss, which doesn't need much consumer adoption at all as long as enterprises rapidly adopt it, which much more obviously is happening

- it also feels like institutional adoption matters much less if other institutions that are fluent in new technology emerge (and because of superior economics, overtake the old ones that are slow to adopt, innovators dilemma style)

- I don't have a strong opinion yet about job changes / labor stuff - Narayan/Kapoor's piece as a whole feels like it falls into the Lucretius problem you describe (we so badly want AI to be the small river we have seen!) and that such discontinuity is harder to forecast. I have also had the Imas piece (and now Seb's) pinned for awhile but haven't gotten a chance to read -saving both

- I am sympathetic to the idea that intelligence is indescribable / complex. I guess my sense would be: metrics, while flawed, remain useful, and I agree with you about it still being useful to measure (and, in this case, order) intelligence even if some nuance or detail is collapsed.

- generalization point / "new work" point does seem to be proven wrong much more decisively in recent months and feels particularly ridiculous today

- re the power / intelligence split, does seem to me like many of the "most human-relational shaped skills" feel like those related to power / these are likely to be more enduring

- I am a bit skeptical of your frame about AI splitting super heavily from humans. or, perhaps if we deploy AI systems that are listening to lots of ambient signals / always running, this logic changes, but it does feel the relevant output basically always is: human operating AI, or even, "human authoring final result by deploying elaborate AI system" - or, almost no way in which to completely remove human input, even if that input is just originating an AI system

- does feel like arguments about shifting benchmarks / efforts to disqualify brute force and such are not very useful. or: there's some desire to measure artificial intelligence *in terms of human intelligence* which feels less useful - of course artificial cognition would be different

- agree with you re AI's closeness to unknowability of danger / need to prioritize this early. It feels fairly circular in their argument that they both describe that (a) we don't need to prioritize alignment type work and (b) an example of an individual misaligned robot getting paperclips without regard for laws, that would cause us to shut it down. seems like we already have plenty of examples of (b), and (a) is the very alignment work they suggest is less useful

- does feel like an oversight that biosecurity is not nearly as present in their initial description

- I think generally kapoor and narayan rely on a lot of capability-based arguments (as you cite: I.e. the “poorly controlled AI will be too error prone to make business sense” argument) that feel much less compelling than structural ones, considering how quickly capabilities have progressed even since initial publication of the essay

- error prone stuff also feels very like "jagged AGI" thesis - doesn't seem like it is not useful, or superhumanly intelligent just because there are some errors

- the autonomous weapons example does also suggest these bits about "AI will always have some human control" is perhaps a weaker argument than I am giving it credit for. or maybe the right framing is: humans are extremely ready (and incentivized) to give more and more control over to complex AI systems, and thus it doesn't matter if they instantiate them to begin, re impacts

- i agree the persuasion argument basically doesn't make any sense. it strikes me that persuasion is a task LLMs will be best at immediately, many of the examples of suicide are particularly compelling here (as is, for example, that guy who incorrectly believed he'd discovered a novel subfield of math with GPT a few months ago). it strikes me that we can think of AI as being persuasive to people who are already quite suggestible now, but, as you say, as capabilities increase, being able to sway larger and larger parts of the population (and: yes, this is the worst AI is ever going to be!)

Anyways: I really liked this!! I similarly have some sentimental desire to believe the initial argument but this was pretty compelling re basically all of the core points of their argument being wrong

TannyHead's avatar

You write, "The question is, might this be more transformative for what it means to be human than any other technology in the history of man? I think the answer to that question is yes."

I think yes as well. My sense is that a great many people, probably most of us, probably me too, have considerable difficulty in journeying beyond the normality bubble we're used to. This is perhaps more for emotional reasons than intellectual calculations. We want to assume that the world will continue on more or less like it already has, because that's the world we know, a world we can navigate with some confidence. If the normality bubble collapses, and something truly new emerges, we don't know what that will mean for us. So we tend to put the possibility aside.

I just came from an offline conversation with a very intelligent and wise longtime friend. She was advising me not to worry too much about the stock market, because if it goes down, it will come back up. She recognizes all the crazy things happening in the world, but still has confidence in normality. I'm not so sure myself. It seems to me that we live in revolutionary times, and pretty much anything can happen. But I can't know that, and as of this moment, normality is holding on.

It's not just AI. It is now finally a proven fact that there is some form of advanced non-human intelligence flying all over the planet. It's both totally remarkable that is actually happening, and even more remarkable how skillfully we don't let this incredible phenomena pop our normality bubble.

No posts

Ready for more?